Age prejudice in the church

[drnice]

I am very dismayed by the church's policies and programs for adults which not only condone but actually encourages and enhances the age prejudice within the membership of the church that exists in the culture of the USA. 

Trying to segregate people who are of different ages is as offensive a form of prejudice as segregating people by skin color.  We are all Gods children, and each of us is unique in our character, interests and preferences.  What possible benefit can come from essentially compelling us, as adults, to segregate ourselves by age and effectively isolate ourselves from other members of our own faith with whom we may share many common interests and with whom we could form mutually gospel value supportive friendships, simply because one of us is 25 and the other 35 or 55 or 95?

Outside the church I have friends that span vast age differences.  Of my closest and dearest friends, 2 are in their early 20s, one in his mid 70s, one is in his late 50s and one in her early 60s.  Each relationship is unique, as all relationships are.  Only 2 of those friends are church members.

Because of the current age prejudiced based church policies and programs I am limited in the opportunities I have to make friends with other members outside of my ward because I am not permitted to attend all of the adult activities available, because I am not the right age.  How can anyone think this is right?

[Guess]

I know you said "...I am limited in the opportunities I have to make friends with other members outside of my ward...", if this is the only concern or reason you are offended, then feel free to send me your contact information. We live pretty close and I would be glad to get you in touch with a couple people I know who attend the SA Wards. They will get you in the loop of all the activities in the area.

If you are simply offended by the concept, then there are numerous logical reasons for separating based on large age ranges.

1) Population control: So, in the USA there are plenty of members. Within a 25 mile range, we have four or five YSA Wards, each with 300+ members. If those same Wards were to be flooded by older guys, looking for those fancy young gals then these Wards would be over populated, and may even result in the other SA Wards being unbalanced (e.g., lots of women, few men). - Note, we actually do have 31-46, and then 47+, or something along those lines.

2) Common ground: Even the 18 - 21 year old members will rarely have high interest in the 28-30 year old members. The 18 - 21 may still be considering a mission, may be in college, or trying to figure out life while living with Mom and Dad. On the other hand, most 28+ are past all of that, and certainly most 31+ are. This is a very lengthy section, and can even get into maturity levels, common association of friends of the same age, etc.

3) Typical attraction: Typically someone is not attracted to someone over ten years of age, let alone twelve (e.g., an 18 year old dating a 30 year old). I would be willing to guess that 90% of the time, an 18 year old girl would not want to date someone that is much older than 30, and probably at least 95% of the time not willing to date someone who is 36 or older (i.e., twice their age).

Right, so you feel restricted, yes? If you are looking to date someone that is younger than you, but feel restricted due to age, then try out the Institute meetings; class availability contingent. If you are not interested in dating someone under 30, but are merely offended by the concept of age separation, then I'd love to hear your refute to the above being sound logic of just three examples. Certainly I understand there are exceptions to the above three reasons, and to the rest of the reasons, but you have to look out for the interest of the many. In fact, I'm willing to believe that there is statistical information which went into selecting the existing age ranges.

I could estimate a few numbers and use regression analysis to visually display a concept of how more marriages most likely occur through the existing design than opening up all single wards to all ages.

[Puzzlesnpieces]

Very well said, Guess. You are exactly right on all points. I don't feel it's is an age 'discrimination' at all, but rather a very rational, logical system. I promise you, drnice, 90% of girls aged 18-25 are very happy that they don't allow men 40+ to attend the same singles ward, as singles wards are designed to promote marriage. There is an undeniable creepiness to the idea you suggest. I assure you, from a female standpoint, Guess is completely right. There are other places and opportunities to meet people of the younger generation, if that's your wish. It doesn't have to be in a ward setting.  

[drnice]

 

Allow me to reword what you have said just slightly so you can better
understand my position.

 

Very well said, Guess. You are exactly right on all points. I don't feel it's is a skin color 'discrimination' at all, but rather a very rational, logical system. I promise you, drnice, 90% of girls with white skin are very happy that they don't allow men with black skin to attend the same singles ward, as singles wards are designed to promote marriage. There is an undeniable creepiness to the idea you suggest. I assure you, from a white person's standpoint, Guess is completely right. There are other places and opportunities to meet people of dark color, if that's your wish. It doesn't have to be in a ward setting.  

Your own words, replaced with a different, more recognized set of prejudical terms, and it becomes plain that you are very prejudiced, which sadly is the very norm I am so frustrated with.  Prejudiced people always feel their prejudice is justified and proper.  If the church had, as it's program, special activities for only those 18 to 24, I could understand that, transition time from childhood to adulthood, but to separate adults as they have I feel simply makes an already bad cultural norm worse. 

If the church divided people by race or color no one would tolerate it, but because the segregation follows an existing cultural prejudice, few if any complain about it.  Prejudices are wrong, period.  Am  the only person who sees this?

 

[drnice]

And just to clarify, I did not mention dating, I was discussing forming friendships with like minded adults, people with whom I share a common set of what I consider to be very important values, regardless of age. 

It was not until the public school systems of the US began segregating people by age, instead of by ability and skill levels, that this age prejudice came into existence in this country.  Such isolationist concepts, I believe, are a powerful tool for the adversary because it separates those with the greatest levels of experience from those with the least, creates mistrust and separates many, who if they truly understood their eternal nature, could become fast friends who help one another through the trials of life.

Granted there are some men, who are divorced or otherwise single later in life, who find younger women attractive and seek to marry them out of prurient motivations.  Though I personally believe the number of men who are so motivated is relatively small.   In any case, no relationship will ever develop unless their is a mutual attraction. 

Women who expend enormous amounts of time and effort making themselves physically attractive and then want to choose who is attracted to the image they have worked so hard to create need to realize they are getting exactly what they are fishing for, regardless of the age of the guy, they are attracting those who are so shallow that looks are all that matter, who are seeking fantasy fulfillment, not a real relationship. 

It is my contention that since we are eternal beings, and this life is but a brief moment, finding someone to spend eternity with is purely a matter of character, personality and mutual compatibility, and that age should matter little if at all in who we choose as friends or as a companion. 

Everyone is different, and along with a majority of people who sadly may prefer to choose their friends only within a narrow age range, or only of one race or color, there also exists a minority who are not prejudiced by these hollow and meaningless measures of humanity, who see people for who they are inside, not outside, who do not judge all members of a group by the actions of a segment of a group.  These are the kind of people I wish to have as my friends.  And sadly I find myself largely frustrated within the church in finding those rare and valuable few who rise above prejudices.

[drnice]

 

I know you said "...I am limited in the opportunities I have to make friends with other members outside of my ward...", if this is the only concern or reason you are offended, then feel free to send me your contact information. We live pretty close and I would be glad to get you in touch with a couple people I know who attend the SA Wards. They will get you in the loop of all the activities in the area.

If you are simply offended by the concept, then there are numerous logical reasons for separating based on large age ranges.

1) Population control: So, in the USA there are plenty of members. Within a 25 mile range, we have four or five YSA Wards, each with 300+ members. If those same Wards were to be flooded by older guys, looking for those fancy young gals then these Wards would be over populated, and may even result in the other SA Wards being unbalanced (e.g., lots of women, few men). - Note, we actually do have 31-46, and then 47+, or something along those lines.

2) Common ground: Even the 18 - 21 year old members will rarely have high interest in the 28-30 year old members. The 18 - 21 may still be considering a mission, may be in college, or trying to figure out life while living with Mom and Dad. On the other hand, most 28+ are past all of that, and certainly most 31+ are. This is a very lengthy section, and can even get into maturity levels, common association of friends of the same age, etc.

3) Typical attraction: Typically someone is not attracted to someone over ten years of age, let alone twelve (e.g., an 18 year old dating a 30 year old). I would be willing to guess that 90% of the time, an 18 year old girl would not want to date someone that is much older than 30, and probably at least 95% of the time not willing to date someone who is 36 or older (i.e., twice their age).

Right, so you feel restricted, yes? If you are looking to date someone that is younger than you, but feel restricted due to age, then try out the Institute meetings; class availability contingent. If you are not interested in dating someone under 30, but are merely offended by the concept of age separation, then I'd love to hear your refute to the above being sound logic of just three examples. Certainly I understand there are exceptions to the above three reasons, and to the rest of the reasons, but you have to look out for the interest of the many. In fact, I'm willing to believe that there is statistical information which went into selecting the existing age ranges.

I could estimate a few numbers and use regression analysis to visually display a concept of how more marriages most likely occur through the existing design than opening up all single wards to all ages.

 

Okay, you want to hear my refute to your points:

1. - Not a valid argument because singles wards are currently set to serve small segments of the singles population.  If you eliminate the age restriction what would happen?  The existing age segregated wards would readjust their populations to serve those who lived closest to them, so we could reduce our carbon footprint as a church somewhat.  It's interesting that you imagine the wards would be flooded with older guys.    If there was no age boundary singles of all ages and both genders would interact in the ward, just as they do in family wards, with the exception of everyone being single, and so finding the extra support those who are single need in the church.  Your comment about wards being flooded by old guys seeking young women displays your personal prejudices. 

2. -I agree that 18 to 24 year old's should have some exclusive activities to attend, because that is a transitional time for those moving from childhood into adulthood and there are many issues unique to them, such as missions and college, starting a new independent life.  However, even they should not be prevented from attending the adult activities sponsored by the church. 

3. - The very terms you used in this statement support what I have said.  Typical is not all.  90% is not 100% Rarely is not never.  When the policies and programs of the church marginalize people who are not the majority, that is fostering prejudice.  If the church simply encouraged and persuaded people to focus their associations on those of their age peer group I would not have a thing to say, but it is not encouragement and persuasion that the church is using, it is compulsion by mandatory exclusion.

Opening singles wards and activities to singles of all ages would foster understanding and offer opportunities for growth and service that currently do not exist.  I do not think that the marital statistics would change substantially, but they would change.  More importantly friendships would develop, bonds would form across the current generational gaps, and the smooth flow of experience based wisdom that used to pass from generation to generation would return.

 

[Guess]

You said: "The very terms you used in this statement support what I have said. 
Typical is not all.  90% is not 100% Rarely is not never.  While I clearly mentioned that there are exceptions, and never noted 100% anything. However, the percentages are certainly high enough to support separating by age to support the three examples I provided.

I'm not going to argue this though. I'll wait and see who under 30 supports the idea of removing all age restrictions on all single wards. Maybe you will change your mind, if others post in this thread.

Let me know if you would like some help meeting other people, it was a sincere offer.

[Puzzlesnpieces]

I am rather annoyed that you would wrest my statements and slant them towards a racially motivated remark. I don't feel it is the same in the least. I happen to have friends (of both gender) who cross a broad range of the age spectrum, I just don't see the value in your version of the way singles wards should work.

I guess, drnice, it comes down to a matter of faith. From your comments, you sound as if you think you know better than the leaders of our church. Personally, I trust them implicitly to run this church the way it should be. God's is a House of Order, and He has instructed that things be organized this way. The YSA and SA wards are 'segregated' as you say for a reason (or multiple reasons) and will only change if our leaders receive divine instruction to do so.

[drnice]

 

I am rather annoyed that you would wrest my statements and slant them towards a racially motivated remark. I don't feel it is the same in the least. I happen to have friends (of both gender) who cross a broad range of the age spectrum, I just don't see the value in your version of the way singles wards should work.

I guess, drnice, it comes down to a matter of faith. From your comments, you sound as if you think you know better than the leaders of our church. Personally, I trust them implicitly to run this church the way it should be. God's is a House of Order, and He has instructed that things be organized this way. The YSA and SA wards are 'segregated' as you say for a reason (or multiple reasons) and will only change if our leaders receive divine instruction to do so.

*****

I did so to make it clear how disgusting your statement sounds to those who you are prejudiced against, by using terms that are commonly, today, recognized as offensively prejudiced. 50 years ago the "colored" version of your statement would have seemed perfectly acceptable to a large segment of US society. Thankfully things have changed in that arena of color prejudice, but age prejudice is currently still acceptable.

It is a defensive mechanism to try to make this an issue of faithfulness, or more specifically to use the strategy of attacking the messenger when you don't like the message.  The policy is indefensible on moral, ethical, spiritual or logical grounds, as all forms of prejudice are.  If you cannot present a cogent argument for the existing policy then maybe you should reassess your position instead of attacking the person presenting the idea. 

By your own words, you have friends that span a wide age range.  Why in the world would you want to be excluded from making more friends in the church outside of your current age range then?

The leadership of the church has changed policies many times throughout it's history when the leadership realized that it was on a track that was offensive in the sight of God.  Surely prejudice is offensive in the sight of God and programs that encourage prejudice need to be rethought. 

We have been repeatedly admonished from the pulpit by our leaders to not follow them blindly but to seek personal confirmation of everything that comes to us.  Can you honestly say that you have sought for confirmation of this specific policy, or are you blindly following?  Intellectual and spiritual sloth will not get you into Heaven.

 

[drnice]

 

You said: "The very terms you used in this statement support what I have said. 
Typical is not all.  90% is not 100% Rarely is not never.  While I clearly mentioned that there are exceptions, and never noted 100% anything. However, the percentages are certainly high enough to support separating by age to support the three examples I provided.

I'm not going to argue this though. I'll wait and see who under 30 supports the idea of removing all age restrictions on all single wards. Maybe you will change your mind, if others post in this thread.

Let me know if you would like some help meeting other people, it was a sincere offer.

 

I appreciate the offer, and your comments, and I would take you up on it if I were not in the process of preparing to move overseas.  My issue is more one of principle. 

I have observed a growing general trend in US society and the church specifically towards increasing age prejudice over the decades of my life.  It is something I feel strongly is completely out of alignment with the principles of the gospel and I had hoped more would have become involved in this discussion so that others would re-examine how they think and process their experience. 

Most people who are prejudiced do not think of themselves as being so.  Those who blindly support policies are being intellectually and morally slothful.  I appreciate how you have thought abou this and attempted to present reasoning.  I hope you are pondering the concept and coming to see how your own beliefs have guided you to accept something that is essentially morally indefensible.

This thread is a wake up call to anyone who is willing to examine their internal beliefs in the light of gospel based reason.  Presenting it in a relatively controversial fashion, rather than in a hoo-hum factual basis, invites people to respond and become engaged. 

 

[Guess]

It sounds like you and Andy may grow to be good friends.

Wish you well overseas drnice.

[drnice]

A closely related topic has been/is being discussed in the thread:

Fluid vs Rigid age limits

(For those who want a broader discussion I invite you to read what has been posted there.)

[wight13]

Drnice,

I was thinking of the “Fluid vs Rigid age limits” thread while reading this topic. I was present during that discussion. Seems like there were a few other threads that hit on the same or related topics as well. But since the site was “upgraded” the forums are no longer Google searchable and therefor its not as easy to find old postings.

Sidenote: (If any of the site operators pick up on this.) For years, the singlesaints forums remained very active. Since the changeover to the new interface they died very shortly afterwards. I don't think this indicates an improvement.

Guess,

your logical reasons seem very well laid out, however, as you noted that there are exceptions and you must be aware that where exceptions exist people get left out. They are the minority. It makes about as much sense as saying that since most members can walk up the stairs that we don't need a ramp.


I digress and will comment point for point on your logical reasons cited.

1.) Population control: You say that “in the USA there are plenty of members. Within a 25 mile range, we have four or five YSA Wards, each with 300+ members.” This is not representative of the Mormon population density of the whole of the USA. Without looking up your profile I will postulate that you are in Utah?

Also, please explain how or why it may occur that certain wards might be “flooded by older guys, looking for those fancy young gals”? If the wards are segregated geographically I don't understand why there might occur an imbalance in the male to female ratio. Would older men move or drive to the wards located around the colleges or something leaving the older single women alone in their wards? What about the younger men and women in those wards? I fail to see the danger of unbalanced wards.

2.) Common Ground: I actually do see this as a potential challenge but must admit I don't really know how the Singles Wards are organized, not being familiar with Utah. You see, I live in a not so densely Mormon populated region. We don't have Singles Wards. Some of our Singles Activities are age segregated however but not in so many divisions. I definitely see a problem with divisions such as 18-30, 30-45 tho. While 5-6 year age gaps, when involving girls still in their teens or early twenties has been decried as “creepy” in this thread as well as others I've been witness to, I don't see any reason for prohibiting fraternization between early thirties and late twenties. This division point creates a stigma however causing many to feel that if a early 30 something were to attend an activity designated for 18-30 somethings that he might be some kind of pervert.

I have never had to deal with this since we don't and can't have this sort of segregation. But do you know what that means? It means *gasp* that even I, at age 40, can fraternize with early 20 somethings! Woo Hoo! How creepy our Singles Activities must seem to you Puzzlesnpieces! :)

3.) Typical attraction: I would guess that you are right about the 10 year rule of attraction and perhaps being generous with the 90% figure but I don't think it necessarily justifies age segregation either. The 18-30 year bracket is prohibitive of more than just a 10 year gap. 32-36 year olds are prohibited from meeting 27-29 year olds. Your 90% rule is now meaningless as it does not justify prohibiting real unions in which there is a 90% chance of some common ground and mutual attraction.

Regression analysis? LOL! You statistics guys kill me! Before you start crunching numbers I'd like to verify where you get reliable data to responsibly perform such an analysis. Before we start on a theoretical model could you please explain how opening up all single wards to all ages impedes the occurrences of marriages? Because you have basically postulated that the current design “most likely” promotes more marriages than an open, no age range system could.

You are starting with a premise and offering to prove it out with estimated numbers and compare it against what exactly? Thats not science, its guessing, Guess.

[Guess]

 

You said: "The very terms you used in this statement support what I have said. 
Typical is not all.  90% is not 100% Rarely is not never.  While I clearly mentioned that there are exceptions, and never noted 100% anything. However, the percentages are certainly high enough to support separating by age to support the three examples I provided.

I'm not going to argue this though. I'll wait and see who under 30 supports the idea of removing all age restrictions on all single wards. Maybe you will change your mind, if others post in this thread.

Let me know if you would like some help meeting other people, it was a sincere offer.

 Hey Wight13,

I actually said that I'm not going to argue this. Still waiting for other people who are under 30 to give their opinions.

Oh, and the only real difference from before and now, is that it is no longer 100% free. Sadly, the model before did prove to potentially align itself with the ad-drive revenue approach. I have submitted a couple recommendations that were received and personally responded to. Also, I never cared for this method of forums. I recommended to Randy long ago to convert to phpbb - nothing happened.

Best of luck though =)

[wight13]

Puzzlesnpieces,

Race discrimination, sex discrimination, age discrimination... its all discrimination. Your annoyance aside, Drnice is right on the money. Trust me, with an attitude like yours you certainly don't have to worry about an older intelligent man showing interest in you... only the creepy ones. :)

As mentioned above, the age segregation creates a stigma like yours that if there happens to be an older man in the room, you fear to be polite or sociable less he take it as an invitation to hit on you. He also might be stigmatized and afraid to be sociable less you say something like “Go away you creepy old man, aren't you old enough to be my father? You should be ashamed of yourself you disgusting pervert!”

When I was 32, I married a girl 13 years my junior. Does that creep you out? I've heard in other threads younger girls and guys decry age differences less than that as creepy. Should I be offended? Do you consider me to be some sort of deviant? Are there any groups I can join to help me overcome the shame of what I have done?

OK, I'll back off a bit. :) I'm not offended by any slight, real or perceived, regarding my autumn/spring relationship. :) You probably know someone who is involved in a successful relationship with a similar age gap. They are not that uncommon. My point is that out here in the netherlands where we don't have these age segregations girls simply have to learn how to deal with unwanted attention from men regardless of age. But at least we don't have to deal with the stigma of being seen as creepy for being in the same geographical proximity of people outside of a ten year age range.

If you want to wonder about the stigma and its source...

Take the fact that Drnice has not indicated any desire to date 20 year olds but you state “There is an undeniable creepiness to the idea you suggest.” (That is... that the church abolish the age segregation.) But that is what there is out here outside of Mormon central. Do you find it creepy that members of all ages are able to attend the same meeting and activities? You wouldn't like it here then.

Then you suggest “There are other places and opportunities to meet people of the younger generation, if that's your wish. It doesn't have to be in a ward setting.“

Wow! Do you know what that sounds like to a third party witness? I'm getting the impression that you and Drnice have met and he hit on you and that you are trying to diplomatically and politely tell him in a public forum to “Take that stuff elsewhere, man.”

I feel like I've beaten on you enough.... Almost... :)

Drnice is also right on the money about your blind faith. The church has repeatedly encouraged the mebers to question and pray and not to follow blindly. Your admonitions that his questioning the age segregation policy equates to thinking he know ”better than the leaders of our church” is highly judgmental and uncalled for. At least he knows that the leaders of our church have encouraged us to do just what he is doing. Do you think you know better than what the leaders of our church have encouraged us to do? Then don't be so quick to discourage others from following our church leaders encouragement.

Joseph Smith had to question, then pray, before he received divine instruction. Divine instruct\ion comes when we are ready and ask for it. It doesn't come as unsolicited advice from on high. I highly doubt that God himself set the 18-30 range. I think there are a few areas of policy in the church that are not handed down from heaven on stone tablets.

[wight13]

Guess,

I caught that you weren't going to argue it until a few more under 30 weighed in. But I think I made some valid points tho. (Sorry I'm not under 30... is some other form of age discrimination. :) The forums have been pretty inactive tho so it might be a while, if ever, before you argue this. The “Fluid vs Rigid age limits” thread never came to a consensus on the matter either and I'm sure it was discussed in other threads as well and with all of the input I think it just died down only to be revived again like now. Its all just mental masturbation anyway. Discussing it on this forum isn't going to make a difference. Policy won't be changed here. But maybe attitudes could. I just like a good debate. :)

As far as the inactivity in the forums... the participation fell off quite a while before the site went commercial. I really do feel its actually due more to the revamping of the site which Randy did long before its sale. Even back when users had to make line breaks by typing </p> the forums seemed more like a community. The forums were the only reason I was here. No chance to meet anyone IRL, I meet on here without serious travel. Segregating the topics into categories, I think, was the main killer and for those of us who know how to power search and constrain results to a single site could search and reference years of forum history. There was something geeky but that provided a sense of accomplishment to be able to post a link or dress up your posts with font, size, color italics or bold type by learning the basics of HTML. I don't think the vast majority of the user minded the learning curve or teaching newbies how to do it. It really made it more of a community in my opinion. Which is why I think there were active forum members. I had visited other Mormon singles sites which consisted mostly of random visitors doing drive by postings. Only singlesaints had that sense of community. You could discuss and debate a variety of topics with the same people you had been communicating with for months and in some cases years. You got to know them, in a way, even if you never got to meet IRL and even if you never PM'd. They were familiar to you. I miss that.

[wight13]

Drnice,

Good luck and hopefully with your move you might find an area with a social structure more to your preferences.

[ryno43]

When I was 30 or 31, I completely stopped going to singles activities.  I had already stopped attending church dances 3 or 4 years prior to that.  Somebody told me that I could not attend YSA activities anymore but I could only attend the SA activities.  I had already lost interest in the YSA activities and I felt it could go downhill from there.  Do not misunderstand, for I had some good experiences and I had some bad experiences in the YSA program. 

I disagree with the argument that just because someone lives in the U.S. there are lot of activities and lots of latter-day saint singles.  This may be true for certain parts of the U.S. but not so much here in the south.   

Plain and simple, there are not a lot of singles activities for either YSA and SA in this area.  And when one does go there are maybe 15-35 people in attendance including the leaders in attendance.  Then the distance to some of these firesides, activities, etc. are 30,60,90, etc miles.  One of the times I was most disappointed in an activity was when I drove about an hour and forty-five minutes to singles family home evening meeting and no one hardly acknowledged me and the only snack they had was popcorn in a cup.  And these people were not strangers to me, for I had already made that trip several times.  Then the most frustrating was when they would announce a fireside or activity in church and then come to find out someone in the Stake had cancelled it and had failed to tell it to the wards and branches and a few people would pull up in the parking lot and sit there and wait and then figure out the meeting had been cancelled.

I do believe some people make age differences an issue.  Even to young adults a few years age difference such as 3 or 4 years can be a issue to some.  I always thought it a bit ridiculous myself, for when you get older age differences are not as big of a deal.  When I used to go to church dances, I could almost tell you what questions a girl would ask me during a dance.  One of the questions that is asked a lot is "how old are you"?  When I was still in the YSA and in my late 20's I had a friend tell me not to tell these girls my age, for even in my late 20's it was becoming an issue for some girls.  I told him I would tell them my real age anyway even if it meant forfeiting a relationship with some of those girls.  If somebody builds all of these barriers around himself or herself, then he or she cannot complain when they cannot get into a relationship.  And it is just not an age issue there are many other issues going on also. 

Concerning Dr. Nice's points, I understood that he was meaning there should be opportunities for friendships and bonds to be formed among Latter-Day Saints of different ages.  I did not take it that he meant that older men should be allowed to pursue a marital relationship with women that are several years younger than the man.  Some of these young women have flattered themselves that the majority of  older single men are trying to marry them.  Even though there are many older men who do want to marry women who are much younger, there are many older men who do not want to marry a woman several years younger and I am one of them.  There are way too many problems with that type of relationship.

Actually, I like Dr. Nice's argument but I will have to say that single adults should be segregated according to age groups.  I believe it saves the peace.  I do not have the same interests I did when I was in my early 20's and I do not really see myself developing romantic interests with a woman that young. 

And ultimately, it is the church leadership's stewardship how they establish it.  Concerning local leaders, they may have opportunities to be a little flexible and through prayer and inspiration can determine if some of the older singles be allowed to join in on some those activities.  Let's face it, some of the YSA activities are more enjoyable than what I have heard about the SA activities. 

[Guess]

 

Guess,

I caught that you weren't going to argue it until a few more under 30 weighed in. But I think I made some valid points tho. (Sorry I'm not under 30... is some other form of age discrimination. :) The forums have been pretty inactive tho so it might be a while, if ever, before you argue this. The “Fluid vs Rigid age limits” thread never came to a consensus on the matter either and I'm sure it was discussed in other threads as well and with all of the input I think it just died down only to be revived again like now. Its all just mental masturbation anyway. Discussing it on this forum isn't going to make a difference. Policy won't be changed here. But maybe attitudes could. I just like a good debate. :)

As far as the inactivity in the forums... the participation fell off quite a while before the site went commercial. I really do feel its actually due more to the revamping of the site which Randy did long before its sale. Even back when users had to make line breaks by typing </p> the forums seemed more like a community. The forums were the only reason I was here. No chance to meet anyone IRL, I meet on here without serious travel. Segregating the topics into categories, I think, was the main killer and for those of us who know how to power search and constrain results to a single site could search and reference years of forum history. There was something geeky but that provided a sense of accomplishment to be able to post a link or dress up your posts with font, size, color italics or bold type by learning the basics of HTML. I don't think the vast majority of the user minded the learning curve or teaching newbies how to do it. It really made it more of a community in my opinion. Which is why I think there were active forum members. I had visited other Mormon singles sites which consisted mostly of random visitors doing drive by postings. Only singlesaints had that sense of community. You could discuss and debate a variety of topics with the same people you had been communicating with for months and in some cases years. You got to know them, in a way, even if you never got to meet IRL and even if you never PM'd. They were familiar to you. I miss that.

 I just miss Gundam Pilot.

[wight13]

Ryno43,

I too live in the south and know
exactly where you are coming from. I too also fell away from the
church for much the same reason, the lack of camaraderie. To drive
an hour and forty five minutes and then not feel like a part of the
group can really leave you feeling like not doing it again.

When I was in my late teens, in my
area, there were only a handful of YSA girls locally, in my age bracket. But a girl 1-2 years
older was out of bounds and a couple of years too young was also. So
eligible girls came to three maybe. One disappeared and became
inactive literally one week before I got up the nerve to ask her out.
I didn't have the nerve to hunt her down however. I did go out a
couple of times with number two but we didn't hit it off and number
three was dating someone else already and there didn't seem to be any
interest on either of our parts.

Singles conferences provided the
opportunity to meet other girls but the distances made it very
impractical to date them or even maintain communications. This was
prior to Internet and cell phones with free long distance...

Ryno43, you can back me up on this... Its
not hard to walk into a room of 15-35 YSA/SAs and find noone that
sparks your interest. I can even imagine that in YSA wards where
there are 300+ singles that many people could likely fail to find
anyone. Certainly a person has a statistically better chance of
meeting and dating someone but if you fail to make a connection then
you have to try again and even amongst 300+ you can run out of
options in that environment rather quickly.

I still do not see what segregating the
age groups does thats so positive. Three to four years can make a
big difference in the 18-22 age range but as a person ages, the age
difference matters less and less at an exponential rate. Especially
after divorce and children. What about those 23-29 year olds
divorced with kids? Do you think they'd rather date to marry in
their own age range or a more mature/financially established man that
might be 5-6 and maybe even 10 years older? What about the single
never been married 27 year old woman? Do you think she's going to
mind a 33 year old suitor? The current age limits for YSA wards
prohibit this. That 31-45 bracket is just as bad but then who cares
about those SAs? Not many of them anyway. I'm sure a single, 42 year
old, can't find a man under 45 woman wouldn't mind having the option
of meeting a man in his late forties.

My point is that YSAs and Sas have one
thing in common and that is the A. We are all supposed to be adults.
We shouldn't need segregated wards and other prohibitive measures
keeping us from mingling with other adults. I see no credible theory
that can really suggest that desegregating the wards would reduce
peoples chances of finding their eternal companion. It reminds me of
nanny state politics where government believes that citizens need to
be protected from themselves. If a girl doesn't feel like dating a
guy that she thinks is out of her age range she's free to turn him
down just like she will the other 9 out of 10 suitors. (Likely, much
higher in singles wards of 300+ Man... that just boggles the mind of
someone who never seen it.) But why should any adult need the
protection of age segregation at the expense of those who are
prohibited from making connections that don't even affect them?

PS.

Ryno43, you wrote: “I did not take it that he meant that
older men should be allowed to pursue a marital relationship with
women that are several years younger than the man.“

The church has
no position or policy that does not “allow” marital relationships
with larger age gaps but your subconscious choice of words is a symptom
of the stigma surrounding such unions. At one time the average
marital age gap was significantly larger than it is in modern times
and the divorce rate was lower... Now 3-4 years age difference even
in the 22+ supposed young single adults is considered taboo,
sometimes even decried as “creepy” and the divorce rate is at an
all time high. Anyone interested in advancing any theories?

Now I did mention, in response to
Guess's point two: Common Ground, that I saw this as a potential
challenge. He has indicated that he doesn't care to argue the points
further until some under thirties weigh in supporting the
desegregation but since participation is voluntary, I'll go ahead
and posit that many SAs would probably rather have their own
activities since, being in the majority, the YSAs would be catered to
more in any “open to all” activities.  It is the SAs who , more than likely, wouldn't
enjoy the lack of common ground. But meeting this challenge doesn't
involve segregating wards it involves setting up activities that are
based upon common interests. That way the SAs don't have to complain,
for instance, about the music at a YSA dance or the YSAs have to complain about the
oldies the DJ has to play to appease the SAs. I see no need to
create artificial social barriers isolating the YSAs from the SAs.
The generational gap is already present but it does not exist in 10
year increments. A 31 year old is not a generation apart from a 29
year old or even a 26 year old for that matter but they are certainly
a generation apart from 45 year olds. So how much sense does the
18-30, 30-45, 45+ segregation make?

 

[wildflower]

When I was in YSA many years ago (my children are that age now) living in a rural area there was a fluidity that does not seem to exist now (based on my children's experience).  Our group consisted of a 35 year old single, never married, male to 3 individuals that were fresh out of high school.  Nobody ever said that this was "creepy".  It also included 3 single mothers, either divorced or otherwise.  These 12 people were all of the YSA in the entire stake. The stake prsident had allowed these "weird" situations to exist because there was no other options in our area.  The SA group youngest person was 50. 

Having moved to Utah recently I am amazed at the age segregation that goes on.  My family ward has no person of college age (2 colleges in town) except 2 young married families.  I miss the vibrancy and different view point of this age group in our meetings.  I think artificial divisions will always be discrimatory. No matter where you draw the line someone is going to be just on the other side of it seperated from someone who is within a reasonable age range.  I think a more reasonable approach is a young group 18-25 who can move out to the regular singles group as soon as they are comfortable with a wider age range.  Let the individual choose what they are ready for and when.  Isn't the Lord's plan really about free agency anyway?

If friendship is the issue there should be opportunities to participate as like minded individuals.  The church has began moving toward that model with Relief Society meetings during the week but it needs to be expanded to many different areas.  Sports are segrated to basket ball for men and volleyball for the women.  Don't bother to ask to play basketball if you are a woman.  I know I have asked (5 different wards, 3 different states).  Set up activities and let people attend them regardless of their age, marital status, or gender.

[smirk101]

I agree with Drnice, I would like to see single adults and young single adults mix activities on some aspects especially when it comes to common interest once is a marriage of 55 or 20 to go bushwalking, and things like this I do agree that the girls find a creepy when the older guys hit-on them and heard a lot of the young 30s girls say they will not come to singlet of activities because of the "old sleazy farts." I think the age segregation is more of a social accepted thing and church policy.  When you look a lot the social dating websites they segregate the age groups all the time this dinner is "for 18 to 25-year-olds only female and 23 to 30 males only" conteki tours 18 to 31.

At the end of the day it comes down to what we think the age gap and the value of the person that is approaching us. I have heard a 60-year-old man marrying 26-year-old women did they really care what others thought.

We are free to choose where we go to make friends both inside the church and out it is up to the individual we approach to accept our friendship or love. When I am in Melbourne go to a YSA fireside to listen to the words are spoken I might say hi to familiar faces and leave. I would love to go the dancers because I love to dance and there are not that many SA dances, I appreciate there will be a prejudice if I did go so I choose not to but yet if I go to a night club with the same age bracket there is no prejudice they do not care if i'm there or not, and they know just to say no.

So were ever you go in life like already mentioned someone will discriminate based on race, age, fashion, wealth, health, height, weight, where we, live how we live.

I think the church does work the principles of social acceptance in a few areas of its politics. We do not have the luxury single wards here sites every one or nothing.

 

 

[Puzzlesnpieces]

No doubt the following words will be taken and completely twisted and used for your own validation, but I will say it anyway:

I remain unconvinced, and I can pretty much guarantee you every single other under-30-female on this site is not in the least persuaded by your arguments. You may call it blind faith if you like. I know my faith is not blind. I am an intellectual and a huge skeptic when it comes to all things and I have made quite a nuisance of myself questioning everything. I do, however, trust the leadership of this church when it comes to the organization of things. The policy they have in place now is there for many reasons, as Guess has observed, but one of them I think needs noting is safety. Now I have no doubt whatsoever you will rage against this and call it discrimination, claiming you are above these unjust sweeping stereotypes, but the fact remains this: this world is becoming an increasingly dangerous place, and with the accessibility to so many terrible mediums out there men (and women too, but more frequently men) are becoming - yes I will say it- creepier and creepier. No one out there can deny that it is not a common trend now for creepy older guys to pick up on younger girls.

Certainly I will allow that not all men are this way. The point I made earlier that you have so conveniently forgotten is that I said I have friends who are male who fit the age group you describe. I admire them greatly. I know there are good people there. None of them, however, have ever expressed an interest in changing the way singles wards are divided. Wight, you said "Trust me, with an attitude like yours you certainly don't have to worry about an older intelligent man showing interest in you." Well good! I can't tell you how relieved I am that I repulse men who might otherwise be interested in me were it not for my 'prejudice'! Because the men who understand my reasoning, the men who respect a differing opinion, they are the people I would rather be associating with. And they are the people I do associate with.

Nothing you have said here has changed my mind in the least, only reinforced my 'skewed' perception. Believe me, it is insistent men, blinded by their own 'empirical logic' that make me glad the wards are divided. I'm with Guess on this, I will only be convinced when I see others from this side of the age gap put in their opinions. Certainly there will always be those who fall just short of the cut off line, and I concede that a 2-5 year leniency might be a good idea, but I am still opposed to the complete mixing you both suggest. I know my opinion wont be taken seriously, that it will be wrested for your own gain, but I'll put it out there anyway in case there is someone who sees my side of things but is too afraid of being attacked to say anything.

 

[smirk101]

well guy normal go to 35, and girl drift across to staying at home rather then SA....it might be different in you part of the world, i can only make comment based on what happends here.

there is a line for a reason and if we understand it or not it's there. i personal don't like the line there 24/7 on everything as it make us miss out on learning about others....i do activity open to both sides and those who come come....ice skating this week not limit on age.....why should there be for that activity.

yes there is creep people around and i know of some in the church. if you go to a night club is there a restriction on who can enter. we draw the line on who we meet.

I would have no problem dating some one in the late 20's for fun, as for romatically dating that age group...not really. when i was 31 i went out on a date with an 18yo. she want to go rock n roll dancing and there no one in here age range that rock n rolled so i took her out to one of the local dance.  people with common interests segrigated by a line that is only meaningful to the people that chose to stand on either side. it's in our own hears and minds this line is important.

you do bring up good points Puzzlesnpieces . it's said to feel young hang with young people....you are young with young wisdom and still have much to share and learn....what will be your thinking in 20 years.....i know mine was like yours that's why i said that.

 

 

[Ruthlessfairy]

I read all the arguments and just had to say and ask this...this debate bout church policy bout age is it "biblical" can it be proved in the bible? I asked this because it is stated in the bible," The Least you have d0ne unto My Children you have d0ne unto Me"...Now i wonder if Jesus where around who would tell Him what ward to go to??? Who would class Him as a "creep" if recal Jesus did age on the Earth...all im saying is if it n0t biblical and can even Discriminate against Christ ...i would have to re-look into the "LOGIC" OR "LACK" THERE OF IN IT...BECAUSE WE DOING IT UNDER "THE CHURCH BANNER RIGHT?"

[LizK]

Wow! this age issue really is a hot potato isn't it? Speaking as someone who was publicly slighted, in her first visit to the chat room, as being an old woman hitting on young men, I have to say that I can see both sides of the argument - sorry , debate. In England there are very few YSA wards and those that do exist are in London which is a long way from most sparsely populated LDS communities. My personal experience is only of generic family wards wherein I have also experienced apparent age discrimination, yes, even there. I haven't attended many SA activities since the decree from our enlightened and spiritually enriched leaders that we must remain within our own stake boundaries. This presents a difficulty for most of us 'oldies' as it severely restricts our ability to meet fellow saints to whom we could be attracted, especially if what was already on offer was not desirable. However, even before this mandate was administered, when I did go to SA activities all over the British Isles, the situation remained much the same because I was meeting the same people at every event. If I was unable to find a prospective eternal companion then, why should I have expected to do so with my boundaries having been limited? That said, I believe that there is a purpose for all things under heaven, even a church programme percieved to be the promotor of age discrimination. What I do know is that Heavenly Father knows me and knows what is good for me. He knows my heart and yes, He has indeed, invited me to challenge him about those issues in the church that are directly informed by the way I choose to interpret them. In the past, He has allowed me to fall in love with a prince among men who was several years my junior but who did not end up as my eternal companion. What I was supposed to learn from this experience still escapes me but then maybe it was not me that had to do the learning. Who knows? What I did realise was that I had the capacity to deeply love someone and believe that I could have made them happy for eternity. Surely that must count for something. I may not have been fortunate, thus far in my life, to find my eternal companion but I do know that whatever, shape, height, age, colour, cultural, intellectual capacity or spiritual persuasion he may turn out to be, I have the capacity to love him for who he is and what he means to Heavenly Father. That I should be so eventually blessed is promised within my patriarchal blessing and whether it be in this life or the next, the point is that, subject to my personal worthiness and that of my prospective eternal companion, it will happen. Life is too short to spend arguing over the nuts and bolts of a situation when we should be learning to live with it and make the best and not the worst of it. Am I being too much of an idealist... maybe so but then, aren't we all to some degree or other? The most important thing is to recognise and respect each other's differences and alternative points of view. It is what we were given intelligence for. Let's not use it to question that which we cannot control or understand but rather to adapt to the circumstances in which we find ourselves in and to develop our faith and testimony in the truthfulness of the gospel in the way our experiences are intended to. I am grateful that the church leaders care enough about my welfare to listen to the counsel they are given regarding the administration of the church. What I need to work on is my obedience to that counsel and to ensure that discrimination, even in the precepts of the church I choose to obey, is not going to be the author of my inability to achieve exaltation. Whatever reasons you may have to agree or disagree with the policies of the church, as far as I am concerned and on a purely personal level, 1Nephi 3:7 is the template by which we should all measure our ability/willingness to adopt the counsel given to us by the prophets.

[LizK]

PS, I apologise unreservedly if I have given offence. It was definately not intended. Love to you XXX

[JoiceJoker]

Age segregation does take place and is a great disadvantage in terms of personal growth. Since the issue has been well laid out I´d like to suggest to address general authorities for reevaluation. What are your thoughts?

[LizK]

I daresay that the General Authorities are likely to have already been challenged on this matter. That no change has been forthcoming implies to me that the Lord does not require it of them. I am sure that they would let us know poste haste should there be a shift in policy, given the strong sentiments around this topic. I trust them to make the right decisions about the administration of the church just as I trust Heavenly Father's will for each and every one of us. I may not like it but, nevertheless, I trust Him. When has He ever done anything that was bad for us?

[hazelnutmegan]

drnice: For someone who incredibly aware of prejudice, I'm surprised you are not aware of your own prejudice against married people and families! If you honestly want a full age range of people to meet and become friends with, than just attend a family ward like I do. My own ward is full of all sorts of different people of all different ages and personal backgrounds. No prejudice at all!

Join a family ward and start making friends with everyone!

[JoiceJoker]

Without an effort there will be no results in whatever direction. Perhaps the issue has been taken to the Top Guy but does anyone here know for sure? (I´m a hopeless optimist)

I can´t see that there is any discrimination placed towards families or otherwise socially occupied individuals by drnice. It´s amazing that so many here seem to be unable to accept the view of others. And yet vividly request the recognition of their own position?

[LizK]

I agree that family wards are great places to make good friends especially as each individual we meet there contributes in some way to our personal growth. I love everyone of my ward's members, despite how one or two may feel about me personally. They don't know how much strength and comfort they are to me. I count them as individual blessings I get to enjoy time and time again. Whilst not having access to single wards where I am, we do have opportunities to meet with other singletons from other wards around the stake, at general/stake conferences etc... but we also make an effort when we can to get together socially. It doesn't happen often because of the large geographic area that the few of us are spread over. That doesn't mean that we eschew the companionship of our married counterparts, it simply means we share a different kind of experience together as people of like minds and interests. We are in the fortunate position of having a lot of support from the 'marrieds' who always invite us to thier social activities. There is alot of love for each other no matter what our personal circumstances. Isn't that what the gospel is all about?

[JoiceJoker]

I agree. Sadly the wards I´ve been to - one had only 64 members and the next stake was 45 miles away - didn´t really emphasize the meaning of a ward in terms of planning activities with all members since activities would separate members into small groups to a maximum of 8 people who would willingly participate. And that´s when it was packed!

Sure, we had a summer festival every year and x-mas celebrations. But those events were so rarely offered (seasonal reasons, I suppose:)) that it turned out to be more like a "Hello, nice to see you again. How have you been this year?"

The ward where I stay right now is sort of not promoting much social contact either although it consists of an amazing number of 178 members. It appears that certain groups are simply left to themselves.

That right there makes it tough wanting to go.

[dadood]

I'm going to be 30 in a couple of months so that means this is the last year that I'll be in YSA. I guess the pressure is on to get hitched before I'm thrown off to Outer Dakrness... I mean Single Adults. It would be weird that when I turn 31, everyone 21-30 will be off limits to me. I can't believe that some people here actually think that it'll be creepy for a 31 year-old to associate with a young and fertile 30 years old

[LizK]

Hi Dadoon, nice to meet you. I don't think that anyone would condemn you just because you are a 30+ who happens to fall in love with 30-. That's taking things a bit too far. On a personal level, I myself was married to someone who was 22 years my senior. Although the marriage did eventually fail, I can assure you it had nothing to do with the age gap. I have friends who are in a similar situation and enjoy very successful marriages despite a quite significant age gap between them. If it's meant to be then it will be. Don't be too put out at having to join the SA group. One thing you can be sure of is that whatever friends you've made amongst the YSA will remain so. No age gap in the world should be permitted to jeopardise those special relationships. Sometimes Heavenly Father will direct people to cross paths with us who may indeed be younger but with whom you are meant to develop a friendship. If it happens to be that they are your eternal companion and are not old enough to join the SA then so be it. I wouldn't want to be the one to argue with the almighty and His plans for us!

[dadood]

Liz, I'm sure the Almighty and the leaders of the church have their reasons... but whatever that reason is, it doesn't make sense to me.

On one hand, I'll be able to hang out with people that are 32 and over when I turn 31. Which is kind of lame that I can't hang out with them now just because I'm 30 and they're over 31. But it would suck when I'm 31 and I can't go to activities with my 30, 29, and 28 year old friends.

[JoiceJoker]

dadood,
In your case I don't think your age plays a big role. I would try some new paint on your blue body. Red, perhaps?

But maybe we can "hang out"? (sorry - I'm far over 32 years of age, though. Maybe I'm creepy.)

[drnice]

drnice: For someone who incredibly aware of prejudice, I'm surprised you are not aware of your own prejudice against married people and families! If you honestly want a full age range of people to meet and become friends with, than just attend a family ward like I do. My own ward is full of all sorts of different people of all different ages and personal backgrounds. No prejudice at all!

Join a family ward and start making friends with everyone!

I am in a family ward. I have always attended a family ward. There are no single's wards for those in my age classification, only stake and regional activities and events. And frankly in those activities and events my experiences have been disillusioning at best.

In my ward there are approximately 80 adults, of which about 50 are married couples. If you have lived long enough you know that married couples have little time for socializing with singles. Of the singles in the ward there are none I have enough in common with to become more than casual acquaintances with, and even if there were, I would not be able to attend the same Church sponsored activities as 3/4 of them do, because I am the wrong age. It's not just about age divided single wards, it's all church sponsored activities that are organized on a larger than ward basis.

When I was first divorced, at age 45, before I knew anything about these policies, I attended an 18-30 singles dance at a nearby LDS Institute. I had a blast, met several interesting people, and was looking forward to attending more church sponsored dances. When I discussed this with my bishop I was informed that I could only attend 30 and over SA activities. (Since then the age divisions have further limited my options.) I did as directed and found that the activities were largely unappealing and even most of the attendees were what I would call "retired from life, waiting to die" types. Not my kind of people.

Have any more solutions you imagine I have not already pursued?

[JulieBramble]

I am late to this discussion.
I disagree with all the segregation full stop, not just of singles...singles are th emost prejudiced group in the church.
I may be from a bad ward or stake but I am excluded from anything out with a formal church activity. I get the impression that single mother ( even if she was divorced from a non member who comitted adultery) is an inferior being in their eyes.
I do not attend any SA activites because I think they are an insult to my dignity as a human being. I already feel down trodden enough but,the last SA and only convention I went to at the temple reminded me too much of my job...as I walked in the lounge of the temple it smelled immediately of old soiled incontinence pads! The women looked neede and desperate...the men needed a shower , as shave and deodorant ( I kid you not)...We varied from about 40 to 140 in age...some were severely disabled and there with carers and others so morbidly obese they needed their zimmer frames to carry there bellies and being from the Uk I am sure those likewise agree with me...
If we did not segregate, then everyone would mix irresepective or age disability, culture or marital status...I have come to hate the words 'married' and 'couples', because of the way we are treated and excluded. I am not a bitter jealous person by nature , but the last 12 yrs in this ward have trained me well! I am forthright by nature ( and trust me so is my ward, but they dont think outsiders should have opinions), and so I voice my opinions.
I do not operate as they do. I refuse to attend SA.I refuse attend most RS activities because the sisters are the worst at the judgements than anyone.

SO DRNICE, in some respects I agree with you their is an age prejudice, but there is a singles prejudice as well. ALso there is a disability prejudice...why or why would I want to attend a fireside for deaf people simply because I am hard of hearing? THis was offered a few year ago so all 'deaf' people' could meet??? WHat is this...? I may be hard of hearing, but I use T loop and some people sign for those who need it in one stake...so did they ask any deaf people or simply presume...I told them it was discrimination to box us up like that not helpful at all. I hold a responsible job with these ears of mine, I run a home with them too. I listen to my kids with them...most deaf people can hear something and those who cant adapt.
I do get on my high horse about any form of discrimination...it is part of my job knowing the laws on such. On many accounts the church in the UK seems ot fall short of the law on a few things whether they realised it or not...and since we should live the law of our land.
I am from a health background, I do not think I want to be isolated and pidgeon holed into this sort of genre...

[ronin74]

I think it is funny how people have stated that the church leaders have organized the church this way so they are happy with it and the church should be segregated. It wasn't that long ago that the leadership of the church had it organized so that colored men could not hold the priesthood. It was that way because the world and the church was not ready and did not view the colored people as their equals. Humanity matured a little and this was changed. Fact is there are many things we are too immature to handle. Prejudice even in the slightest form is mental abuse. There are many forms of mental abuse that are encouraged by the body of the church and until we can unlearn these habits we will be stuck living the lesser laws. It is strange how few of you have looked to history for explanations to why things are how they are. Even when we were given a higher law and we were unable to live it, it was taken from us. The law of consecration comes to mind. The church is organized the way it is because that is how we need it for now. As it has in the past the church will change in the future. Remember God is the same yesterday, today and forever but the church isn't. God has not finished restoring the church.